Vote Richard J Orloski for South Whitehall Township Commissioner~~~!!!

Good. What a spoiled brat. Taking the class for free, and still manages to screw it up. And her father lets her sue his employer?! Disgraceful.

Thank you Judge Emil Giordano........ ridiculous

kudos to the judge!

Good. That whole thing was ridiculous.

Professors everywhere breathe huge sighs of relief!

The ultimate in entitlement attitude!

What an embarrassment to the region. Pathetic. Good job, judge.

Unlike family of faculty admission criteria, Grades are earned, not gifted. Congrats to Lehigh for standing up and defending it's academic excellence

I do not think it was proper of the judge to "chastised both sides for not reaching an out of court settlement." If Lehigh, or the student, did not agree in principle... both have the right to have the case heard... or the Judge could have *thrown the case out, if it was so unjustified*.

Perhaps Judge Giordano thought that Megan Thode should have been given the chance at taking the class over: and if this was offered by Lehigh, I do not know why she did not accept. Perhaps it was not so offered.

But further, the judge ruled that there was a failure to prove non-academic reasons for the C +, and a resulting dismissal from the program. *But there may have been arbitrary ones*. The reason "I don't like liberals using loose language" is an insubstantial, and in my eyes, possibly an unsatisfactory, reason for zeroing class participation, and dropping a student from an academic program..

- J. G. Lewis '90

I give her an A+ for her sense of entitlement. Is there a case too ridiculious for Rick Orloski to take? Nope didn't think so.

Am I amazed she lost? Actually, yes. In a society that has basically turned inside out for the "different" or those entitled. KUDOS to the judge. The PEOPLE should counter sue the idiot Orloski for wasting the courts time. Shame on Ms. Thode for using her parent to attain a free education, and when she doesn't get handed a grade, she sues the university that entitled her in the first place. Maybe we will see Ms. Thorne in Georgetown Law School at age 33 re-claiming her case. Shameful, embarrassing your father's employer as this ludicrous trial went viral.

Another question is whether Universities should be viewed as "fully under the laws" of the state, or to an extent as "independent fiefdoms"? (...) I remember at Lehigh, as a freshman myself,... *all students* were invited to go "up the hill" during the weekends to party and drink beer, even hard liquor. (during the 1980's) And these "open" parties occurred in dormitories too, including freshman dorms. (There were sometimes "hotel parties", open to all.). Additionally, a keg could be purchased for the house, or grain alcohol was occasionally served...) & etc. *Yet the legal drinking age then was 21, in Pennsylvania.*

This can be seen, and probably was, a remnant of the 1960's/70's influence (and was duly rolled back by Lehigh, during the latter 1980's and the 90's). But the point is that it gives one an idea of the precedent for independence, on legal issues, inside a University. I do not know however, what the situation is historically on this score...

How can anyone who attends classes get a ZERO grade for participation???
Such a grade is not subjective, but rather punitive. It is a black mark for Lehigh. I had several grades changed through an internal appeals process. In one case I got a C when I clearly desired an A. My tests were reviewed by the dept. chair and 2 full profersors, not only did they change my grade to an A but the class profersor was denied tenure and lost his job. The C grade was given punitively because I respectfully corrected mistakes that he often made on the blackboard - luckly equations are not subjective.
However, I do agree that Orloski less than a stellar lawyer for wasting the court time!
R.E.Linney, BS in Mechanical Engineering '76, MS in ME '78

John G. Lewis,
LIFE is variable and arbitrary. People lose jobs, homes and CHILDREN, everyday. A difficult teacher? A difficult class? That's where you learn to adapt ... and be successful.
She should thank her lucky stars for her FREE education and respect it by jumping through the occasional hoop, that may be required.
This was HER starring moment to prove she could make it. Even without green lights all the way.
She's got a degree. She's got a job. And no, she won't be a future Queen any day soon.

Wonderful conclusion to a tremendous waste of time and money. I knew Lehigh made a mistake when it admitted women!!

I remember Lehigh when it was a bastion of conservatism and well respected by both the business community and academia. When grades were earned and when you had to go to Saturday morning classes before the football game. Lehigh has since become another mamby bamby liberal arts based eastern school where grades are handed out like gifts and kids barely go to class 3 days a week and drink from Thursday to Sunday night.

Patriot2, not only are you a chauvinist, but you are also dead wrong about the current academic rigor of Lehigh. I was there when it was all male and I had 6 days a week of 8am classes. I was also there when women were first admited. Back then Lehigh's reputation was that of a drinking school with some frats "on tap" 7 days a week. Today, Lehigh has a much higher academic standing than the days your bigoted mind wants to recall.
And I mean that with all due respect to my elder alum because I'm sure you will see the truth if you look at things with an open mind.

Ruby, Bob L.:
The judge may have reached the correct conclusion here, but by incorrect means. I believe that an appeal, in principle, of this sort, is justifiable. And the bar to be passed, in deciding for the prosecution, should not be, quite, *non academic standards*, but of the more broad, unjustifiedness. After all, everything, even academic standards themselves, must be in a broad sense, "justifiable". Where is it written that a student cannot curse in class... anyway? But this standard can be seen as a matter of propriety, of ethics, and of *degree* (amount) which can be sustained under the heuristic of "Unjustifiableness" (or irrationalness).

There is the point, too, that any organization left to "police" itself is a rather irrational sort of concept. A case may be so resolved, as with Mr. Linney (above), inside the University, even inside the department. *But this may not happen.* (...) Humans are such that we may have deep down, hidden to the view, subtle bigotries, racisms, various illogicisms and casuistries, that we are sometimes only partially aware of. I also hold... that we should allow a University the in principle right to blackball (as in the Middle Ages), that is, to refuse to give a student a certain degree. This is to say, punitive grading, at times, and in certain instances, can be justified. But this is an area which is somewhat grey, admittedly, and an area in which any University should tread with care.

- J. G. Lewis '90

To further my argument, that the judge ruled correctly (at least evidently, or so everyone thinks...), but with incorrect reasoning: He gave the reason (reported here in the B. P.) as to why he ruled for the defendant (Lehigh University), being: "The plaintiff [Thode] failed to establish that the University based the awarded grade of C + on anything other than purely academic reasons."

But is it not the case that using foul language in class is not a "purely academic reason"?

- JGL

Why didn't she take the class over again?

Using foul language in class is, as Lehigh said, unprofessional for a student seeking a degree in counseling.

Bob: I was actually defending the policy of the Middle Ages, not criticizing it.... So I think it may be justifiable to zero out class participation for "non academic reasons" (such as rudeness, impropriety, callosity, & etc.). (...) And yes, if I recollect accurately, Lehigh did have a minimum grade for a course, above which you could not retake the class.

Ben: Yes... I forgot to consider that the University no doubt reviewed everything here, and decided to back the instructor for the class (in this case, a graduate student herself). But one cannot simply trust the administrators, though I would dearly love to.

Actualy, above all, I was somewhat critical of the judge, and how he framed the ruling.

- John G. Lewis BA '90

Do you really think college professors are above screwing over students they personally dislike? I don't know the facts in this case, but I do know that if you want an advanced degree, you don't irritate anyone on the faculty, especially the department chair, and especially at a hermetic, insular school like Lehigh. (MS Lehigh 2004)

Some academic institutions have sunk to the low level that an administrator can override the grade given Thankfully Lehigh has NOT sunk to such a low level!
It s not perfect but sure beats the ability to hand out grades for whatever is the hot button of the day. Three cheers for Lehigh!
Now for the expert witness the plaintiff employed to come up with $ 1,300,000 of lost wages as a point of view three kudos to that Lehigh graduate (BS +MBA) as to voodo math.

I agree with Ruby's statements.
And while we may think the judge was ridiculous to criticize Lehigh, or to not end the trial earlier as he was apparently asked to do (I'm guessing this was in response to a defense motion for either a directed verdict or summary judgment -- the press accounts did not make that clear), there MAY have been a reason for so doing (emphasis on the 'may'). That is that the judge might have wanted to make his ruling immune to an appeal. When a judge displays too much scorn for one side in a trial, that can be grounds for an appeal. By giving the appearance of even-handedness until all the testimony was complete, the judge made an appeal that much more difficult.
On another note, I think we should bemoan the collateral damage. As in every lawsuit, people's personal lives become subject to unwanted publicity. The plaintiff invited that, but the defendant professor sure didn't, and the professor got a spotlight on her own life.

Congratulations to the judge! Oh my goodness. What is the world coming to if we believe we are entitled to sue each time we are disappointed? A C+ is not a horrific grade. Suck it up and find another way to be successful.

If PA had a "loser pays" approach to lawsuits, we could avoid frivolous suits like this one.

John Schubert: Yes, that is another good point. Public spotlight on people lives. Too much so. The Dad here, a professor at Lehigh himself, was just trying to help his daughter out, and the defendant instructor did not at all invite this.

But what surprised me a little here was how quickly everyone seemed to jump onto the University's side, and criticized the student. I think that probably (without knowing all the facts, charges, and various 'proofs').... the judge's verdict was correct, but I simply believe that an appeal of this sort is, in principle, vindicable.

J. G. Lewis '90

It' s called personal responsibility. Obviously she never learned that in school. Every action has an outcome. In her case, not too good.

Perhaps it's time that Lehigh trustees revisit the wisdom of tuition remission for graduate programs ..especially those of a professional nature which prepare one for supposedly high value careers.
I know some institution have clamped down ....may be time for Lehigh to revisit same.

I wonder what it costs for expert testimony from a partner at Grant Thompson as to voodo math to support a $1,300,000 lifetime salary loss .Partner compensation is probably in $400,000 yr range at that firm so the billing rate might be in $800 /hr ..must be nice to be able to afford that level of support while claiming to be hurt financially? If I run out of things to do Ill go read that report ..sure to learn a lot.

Kudos to the judge. Now this is what you call bad parenting and not giving your child enough attention when they were younger. These people are Disgraceful. Karma works in wonderful ways.

Come on now... Have you never in your life been given an unjust grade, an unjust consideration, an incorrect analysis or judgement? You call for the young lady to grow up... True, we should consider innocence of wrong before it is imputed: but this goes both ways. I am not necessarily defending anyone here, but I am surprised by the quick, and not fully reflective, reactions of many people to this case. (...) I believe an in principle appeal of this sort (that is, by the young lady on a grade/degree issue), to a hopefully higher authority (being the US Government), is not only permissible, but is capable of vindication.

- J. G. Lewis '90

Ruby:
Yes... you raise a good point with your honey/vinegar metaphor.
- John

Good advice!!

Nobody got a flunk --she passed --that fact that she passed but the grade was not good enough for other things is tough ..next thing somebody will want to hand out 70s for merely showing up a few times and not making too big a fuss before falling asleep in class --whoops --sorry, some institutions already do that --makes those graduation statistics look good! .

Ms Thode is entitled to be heard ..that is her right..and if she had had better poker cards as did one young women a few miles east who merely suffered non renewal of a 1 Year contract when it expired ..she settled for something over $600,000 ...a clear local example ...I don't fault her to try but I think justice was served........I.d still like to read the voodo finance study that supported the $1,300,000 claim....just in case I ever get a C- in my quest for a mail order PhD.

@Rasterone -- all good points as to why PA needs to put the burden on the responsibility of the loser of such cases. The problem we have is that there is no cost to rolling the dice in our system...if I win the lottery, great, if not, who cares. There needs to be skin in the game, as we all know we can find some slouch attorney to take on ANYTHING. Although this case was lost, the attorney received national attention, even under the frivolous suit in this case. So who really was the loser...as always, the winning Defendant who had to defend itself for no qualified reason. The rules need to change to help the innocent, and a database needs to be developed regarding the sleaze counselors who demonstrate consistent abuse of the system by accepting such ludicrous cases, with significant penalty. I don believe in taking away a right to sue, however there needs to be consequences when doing so. I am certain I will be getting pushback from my friends at ACLU, regarding limiting those who cannot afford to sue, however, if they have a great case, they need to take the risk. That's what 'skin in the game' means.

Actually our British ancestors use such a loser pays system and it can have the predictable impact of icing the little person's ability to take on the big guys and making them afraid to seek a day in court. Now in several areas in US there is a deliberate effort to seek equal access to justice for the little guy and if the employer or whatever is proven wrong then the employer pays , such as EEOC and ADA matters and in education as to matters of a "free appropriate public education" covered by an IEP or 504 plan.

One thing for sure , were I back doing executive recruiting and any background checking I'd avoid certain candidates with a 10' pole if they came before me. --a task a whole lot easier than it was say 25 years ago.

Phillyboy:
Instead of commenting on the justness of Lehigh's general policy, and the judgement in Ms. Thode case, and of her life... I would rather like to note the unmerited, unrighteous judgements of our own society, as you raise, in your first post. (As with a 15 year veteran being dismissed...) A presumed impropriety somewhere (n this instance, Lehigh) does not justify it somewhere else (in the work place)....

Anyway... people *are not worth money*, ok? It is rather more proper to say that an individual's work is of higher quality, conceivably more value, than someone else's... Too much materialism in America today.

I actually like the fact that Lehigh has (and in the past Universities generally have had) an ethical component to their grading.. which they can bring to the fore when needed/when called for.

- John G. Lewis

Next somebody will want to take me to task for handing out a grade that was perhaps a shade on the high side based on actual performance? ( Perhaps barred by the statute of limitation ) After all grades might have opened doors or kept doors open for a marginal student. Oh, I do recall a suit about a student who got decent grades but apparently did not learn enough to proceed to his chose field and he argued (unsuccessfully) that it was school's fault he didn't learn enough.

Serious about what?
Clearly if somebody hands out unearned higher grades that could impact the persons ability to get ahead of others in a competitive line or stay in a line or in general diminish the quality/perceived value of that diploma or whatever it is. If XYU hands out diplomas to warm mushrooms then I am going to put applicants with degrees from XYU into a shredder file or at least be forced to examine other measures of possible qualification? At a time when a HS diploma does not assure you the holder can read a tape measure or tell time or write two coherent sentences are you willing to assume that a 4 year degree from Mudflat U does either?
And as to second point--yes I am aware of a school in CT that got sued because student did not learn enough (to proceed to a career in football!) despite getting a diploma. Handing out diplomas to make the institution look good is not a lost art.

Rasterone: Yes... I vaguely recollect too, that a school or University was sued because it did not provide the perceived correct, or proper, instruction... Happened 10 years or so ago, maybe less.

Unfortunate, all the law suites in today's world. But there is mistreatment too, very much so, let us keep that in mind. I am not saying Thode was justified, or the University was not... But immorality in the work place certainly will not justify any thought, or real, immorality in Colleges and Universities.

It's been a nice discussion everyone!

- J. G. Lewis, LU Class of 1990

Grade games are likely to get worse and more costly .
I have in my hand an edict written by a licensed professional that she divines to herself the right to change students grades as may be issued by others. She lives near Bethlehem ; I do not know if she is a product of that fine institution LU but such would not be unreasonable possibility The basic tone of her edict is to induce staff to issue higher grades than the student might otherwise get on basis of real world learning performances. With educators like that we are in for some very tough times!

Rasterone:

I certainly do not at all agree with pandering to the students, as you suggest, nor with letting the administrators do whatever they deem 'fit and proper', as seems to be increasingly the case for Lehigh. That is another story, another topic. Who will judge the magistrates?

- John